Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

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'THE URGE PRIMAL!' - Who Wins?

Poll ended at Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:43 pm

Felix the Cat (herbiepopnecker)
8
62%
Itchy (Two-Bit Specialist)
5
38%
 
Total votes : 13

Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:41 pm

herbiepopnecker wrote:
Two-Bit Specialist wrote:I only brought up that point (the time period they were created) because I know people are going to mistake that for experience (like butters did). I knowingly chose Itchy because in his universe he's been around for as long as Felix (in addition to choosing him for his murderous impulses, that is).

But at the end of the end, it shouldn't even matter. I think CrazyChris said it best, back at the Douglas Classic (which happened to be a response to herbie):

CrazyChris wrote:I don't think the time a fictional creation was authored pertains to how much experience the characters depicted therein have. That's very iffy logic. I've been around for 24 years. But if I were a fictional character who was 24 years old but the book I appeared in was published in 1887, then I wouldn't get the benefit of 100 extra years of experience in Fight Club. That would be silly.


I wasn't even interested in that point, but come on - Itchy hasn't REALLY been around since the '20s
(speaking real world time) whereas Felix actually has been (again, real world time).

Felix has access to useful things, not just funny stuff.

I smell desperation.

Felix being around longer in the real world has no bearing on how he would perform in the fight. That is like saying Superman would be beaten by Sherlock Holmes because Holmes was created in 1887 and Superman wasn't around until 1932. What matters is fighting skills and Itchy is much more lethal than Felix.
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Two-Bit Specialist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:45 pm

Wow. Somebody just voted against me, and I have no idea why. The whole battle has taken a weird turn of events. So far the pro-Felix arguments have consisted of:

1)Cats eat mice. Really? You don't say. Except that, if you've watched any cartoon ever, you'll notice that mice have a history of outsmarting cats. Jerry always beats Tom. Speedy always beats Sylvester.

2)Felix is older than Itchy in real-world time, but since when has that had any bearing in Fight Club, I ask you. That's like saying *looks at recent matches* Superman should've totally beaten Doctor Strange on account on Superman having been around longer. But we all saw how that one turned out.

No one has come up with a conceivable way for Felix to defeat Itchy. There's all of this talk about his bag of tricks but what can it actually do?

I'll tell you what. butters likened Felix to Hank Pym (minus the size-changing powers, obviously). Well, I liken Itchy to the Punisher! What do you think about that?

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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:48 pm

Spider-Dad wrote:I love both characters. Itchy is quite resourceful, murderous and over the top. That's the point. But he really does not have any "powers" so to speak. Felix on the other hand, is just as resourceful, has a bag of tricks and his tail can morph into any shape, even a weapon. Plus Felix means "lucky" in Latin.

So, despite my love for all things Simpsons my love for pu*** triumphs over any mouse. Go Felix!

But the weapon the tail will turn into will probably be a mallet which Itchy has been shown to be immune to. Itchy is a master planner. He comes up with elaborate ways to murder. He also is able to pull out a weapon from nowhere and destroy his opponent before he has a chance to react.

This fight will be 30 seconds max. Felix will see Itchy, pull out a mouse trap from his mystical bag, Itchy will shove the trap into Felix's giant eye ball, and use Felix as a fur coat.

Or Itchy will run into a hole. Felix will put his paw in to grab him and Itchy will pin it with a skewer in the kitchen and then pop out the hole with a chainsaw and carve Felix into a blood fountain.
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Two-Bit Specialist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:50 pm

herbiepopnecker wrote:I smell desperation.


Oh, not at all. Desperation was trying to make a sneeze some sort of lethal attack. ;)

Spider-Dad wrote:Plus Felix means "lucky" in Latin.

So, despite my love for all things Simpsons my love for pu*** triumphs over any mouse. Go Felix!


So that was you who voted against me. Hey, Itchy was originally known was "the Lucky Mouse." ;)

But seriously, the bag of tricks won't be any good when Felix is missing his eyes and his hands.

FSUSpiderFan wrote:Felix being around longer in the real world has no bearing on how he would perform in the fight. That is like saying Superman would be beaten by Sherlock Holmes because Holmes was created in 1887 and Superman wasn't around until 1932. What matters is fighting skills and Itchy is much more lethal than Felix.


lol We were posting the same thing at the same time, apparently. [smilie=spidey_dude.gif]
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Two-Bit Specialist wrote:
I'll tell you what. butters likened Felix to Hank Pym (minus the size-changing powers, obviously). Well, I liken Itchy to the Punisher! What do you think about that?

~My Two Cents

Itchy is a more creative killer than the Punisher and can pull lethal weapons at will. He has a better kill percentage than the Punisher too.
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:02 pm

Maybe I take Fight Club too seriously but this is one of those fights that drives me crazy. It's not even my fight but I hate seeing a character that should be winning get voted against because of factors that don't matter like the opponent being "cooler", more popular, more original, created earlier, etc. etc. All that should factor in is what the characters are capable of to win the fight.
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Two-Bit Specialist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:09 pm

herbiepopnecker wrote:And I wasn't even going to bring up "age" in the first place!


What are you talking about? That was totally part of your very first argument!

herbiepopnecker wrote:Besides, are you really going to vote against......

Image :?:

"During the early days of television development it was necessary to monitor and adjust the quality of the transmitted picture in order to get the best definition. To do this, engineers required an 'actor' to constantly be under the burning studio lights as they tweaked and sharpened the image, and Felix fit the bill perfectly. He was the right colour (black and white), impervious to the heat from the lights and worked cheaply (in fact a one-off payment was all that was required)."
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Spider-Dad » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:13 pm

Two-Bit Specialist wrote:So that was you who voted against me. Hey, Itchy was originally known was "the Lucky Mouse." ;)


YUP...it was me. 8)

Are you trying to argue logically for Itchy? That is funny. For both characters, there really are not any rules or logic. Felix and Itchy can DO ANYTHING that the writers decide. Itchy is the modern extreme, and Felix is the original. So yes, Herbie is right. And for my money, the original is always better than a copy...
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby butters911 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:17 pm

I change my vote to Itchy...for now
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Two-Bit Specialist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:22 pm

Spider-Dad wrote:
Two-Bit Specialist wrote:So that was you who voted against me. Hey, Itchy was originally known was "the Lucky Mouse." ;)


YUP...it was me. 8)

Are you trying to argue logically for Itchy? That is funny. For both characters, there really are not any rules or logic. Felix and Itchy can DO ANYTHING that the writers decide. Itchy is the modern extreme, and Felix is the original. So yes, Herbie is right. And for my money, the original is always better than a copy...


:roll:

I have no idea what you're trying to say there. This ain't a TV show or a comic or any kind of story. It's Fight Club, which takes what has been known and shown for both characters into account.

Back in the Lara Croft vs. Nathan Drake match, despite the fact that Lara Croft had been around far longer than Drake, I never used that kinda argument, because it doesn't hold any water. It's about their innate abilities. It's about their weapons. It's about the expertise. It's about what they can do in the situations they are put in and if they have been shown to have succeeded before in similar situations.

That's what separates Fight Club from run-of-the-mill polls. We're not arguing better stories, or better games, or original vs. rip-offs. We're arguing who can kill each other the deadest and why.

And I've shown several times why Itchy can kill Felix dead. No one else has done the opposite.

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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:26 pm

Spider-Dad wrote:
Two-Bit Specialist wrote:So that was you who voted against me. Hey, Itchy was originally known was "the Lucky Mouse." ;)


YUP...it was me. 8)

Are you trying to argue logically for Itchy? That is funny. For both characters, there really are not any rules or logic. Felix and Itchy can DO ANYTHING that the writers decide. Itchy is the modern extreme, and Felix is the original. So yes, Herbie is right. And for my money, the original is always better than a copy...

You could say the same of any character. The all do whatever the writers tell them.

The original isn't always better. By that logic Dennis the Menace would beat Bart Simpson, Mickey Mouse would beat Bugs Bunny, Lassie would beat Kujo, and Norman Bates would beat Hannibal Lector.
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:27 pm

butters911 wrote:I change my vote to Itchy...for now

Hooray for logic and reason!!!
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Spider-Dad » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:41 pm

Two-Bit Specialist wrote:This ain't a TV show or a comic or any kind of story. It's Fight Club, which takes what has been known and shown for both characters into account. That's what separates Fight Club from run-of-the-mill polls. We're not arguing better stories, or better games, or original vs. rip-offs. We're arguing who can kill each other the deadest and why.

And I've shown several times why Itchy can kill Felix dead. No one else has done the opposite.


I agree that under normal Fight Club situations, that would apply. However, these characters by design are illogical, satirical and whimsical, when using logic most of their stories don't make sense. Like FSUSpiderman said, it is like pitting MIckey Mouse against Bugs Bunny. But I disagree with FSU, that you can say that about "any" character. Most characters have limits or rules. We know Spider-Man can't fly, Kryptonite hurts Superman and 3 government agencies can cause a Rick Perry brain freeze. But if Itchy can produce a bazooka out of thin air and Felix can turn his tail into a shovel, it is ANYTHING GOES, there are no rules.

So using Simpsons "canon if you will, everyone is arguing that Itchy will murder Felix the cat based upon what he has acheived against Scratchy. Well, either Scratchy has the best healing factor in all of fiction, or Itchy is pretty ineffective. So we see Itchy mame, behead, chop up and bloody Scratchy all the time, but Scratchy still survives. So for what has been shown in the Simpson's, Itchy IS homicidal, but can't really take out Scratchy. So Itchy maybe creative in his ability to attack, bottom line, Scratchy still stands. Since Scratchy is merely a prop for Itchy, he has met his match when it comes to a feline that actually will not just stand there and "take it'.

I stand by Felix...
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:07 pm

Spider-Dad wrote:
Two-Bit Specialist wrote:This ain't a TV show or a comic or any kind of story. It's Fight Club, which takes what has been known and shown for both characters into account. That's what separates Fight Club from run-of-the-mill polls. We're not arguing better stories, or better games, or original vs. rip-offs. We're arguing who can kill each other the deadest and why.

And I've shown several times why Itchy can kill Felix dead. No one else has done the opposite.


I agree that under normal Fight Club situations, that would apply. However, these characters by design are illogical, satirical and whimsical, when using logic most of their stories don't make sense. Like FSUSpiderman said, it is like pitting MIckey Mouse against Bugs Bunny. But I disagree with FSU, that you can say that about "any" character. Most characters have limits or rules. We know Spider-Man can't fly, Kryptonite hurts Superman and 3 government agencies can cause a Rick Perry brain freeze. But if Itchy can produce a bazooka out of thin air and Felix can turn his tail into a shovel, it is ANYTHING GOES, there are no rules.

So using Simpsons "canon if you will, everyone is arguing that Itchy will murder Felix the cat based upon what he has acheived against Scratchy. Well, either Scratchy has the best healing factor in all of fiction, or Itchy is pretty ineffective. So we see Itchy mame, behead, chop up and bloody Scratchy all the time, but Scratchy still survives. So for what has been shown in the Simpson's, Itchy IS homicidal, but can't really take out Scratchy. So Itchy maybe creative in his ability to attack, bottom line, Scratchy still stands. Since Scratchy is merely a prop for Itchy, he has met his match when it comes to a feline that actually will not just stand there and "take it'.

I stand by Felix...

It is like pitting Mickey Mouse against Bugs and Mickey would get his but kicked. One is a much more effective trickster and fighter, the other is a wimpy one dimensional boring mouse. Just because the "characters by design are illogical, satirical and whimsical" doesn't mean you can't compare their capabilities.

Itchy is very effective at killing Scratchy. He murders him every the time and Scratchy does his best to live. Itchy is somehow able to reincarnate between episodes our there are millions of Scratchy clones running around. Either way by Fight Club rules Itchy wins 100% of the battles. Felix has much less offensive capabilities. He will turn his tale into a blunt weapon which don't work on Itchy. Itchy is shown all the time to take mallets to the head from Scratchy and not be faced. Felix has never used lethal force. What exactly is he going to do to Itchy?
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Re: Friendly Fire Fight Club #221 - 'THE URGE PRIMAL!'

Postby Two-Bit Specialist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:26 pm

Spider-Dad wrote:I agree that under normal Fight Club situations, that would apply. However, these characters by design are illogical, satirical and whimsical, when using logic most of their stories don't make sense.


I think you're getting too metaphysical there. Or just thinking about this too much.

First of all, I don't see why this match has to be any different than the other matches. There ARE rules that do apply to both Felix and Itchy. You mentioned that writers could make them fly if they wanted to. Except that there's no evidence of them flying "on a whim." If I can come up with evidence that Itchy has shown flight in the cartoon, I would use it. But there isn't it. I can't just "make up" powers on the basis that they are cartoon characters.

What I can use is abilities to which there's plenty of evidence. Drawing weapons out of thin air is something that Itchy has shown plenty of times. I've made arguments based on what is known and proved about Itchy. I could argue he's a weapons expert because that is explicitly shown.

I couldn't say, for instance, that Itchy has x-ray vision, or that he can bend metal with magnetism, or shatter planets with his feet because "there are illogical, satirical, and whimsical characters. Who says they CAN'T do those things?" It just doesn't work that way.

Spider-Dad wrote:Like FSUSpiderman said, it is like pitting MIckey Mouse against Bugs Bunny. But I disagree with FSU, that you can say that about "any" character. Most characters have limits or rules. We know Spider-Man can't fly, Kryptonite hurts Superman and 3 government agencies can cause a Rick Perry brain freeze. But if Itchy can produce a bazooka out of thin air and Felix can turn his tail into a shovel, it is ANYTHING GOES, there are no rules.


Writers have been known to break those rules and limits you mention. I've seen Spider-Man fly in Chaos War when he was given a portion of Hercules' power. I've seen stories where Kryptonite doesn't harm Supes.

But, like I said, there ARE rules to what Itchy and Felix can do. At the very least, here in Fight Club, they are limited to their cartoons have shown them capable of doing.

Remember the Douglas Classic? Bugs Bunny won that. No one ever argued that Bugs Bunny could hulk out or breath fire. Again, only what is known about Bugs Bunny was used.

Spider-Dad wrote:So using Simpsons "canon if you will, everyone is arguing that Itchy will murder Felix the cat based upon what he has acheived against Scratchy. Well, either Scratchy has the best healing factor in all of fiction, or Itchy is pretty ineffective. So we see Itchy mame, behead, chop up and bloody Scratchy all the time, but Scratchy still survives. So for what has been shown in the Simpson's, Itchy IS homicidal, but can't really take out Scratchy. So Itchy maybe creative in his ability to attack, bottom line, Scratchy still stands. Since Scratchy is merely a prop for Itchy, he has met his match when it comes to a feline that actually will not just stand there and "take it'.


The main problem with that is that you keep forgetting Fight Club rules. It's first fall. Itchy doesn't have to kill Felix. He just has to make him unable to fight, which beheading can do instantly.

Let's go back to that Bugs Bunny example. Have you known Bugs Bunny to kill his opponents in his animated shorts? Not that I recall. But he won because he's bested his opponents countless times. It's not a fight to the death. Just a KO.

Spider-Dad wrote:I stand by Felix...


Your standing by him for reasons that have no bearing on the match itself.
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