Folks, if you liked last issue, you are going to like this one. We pick up where we left off and Kindred continues his remembering of day gone by. If you had any doubt of who Kindred is, this issue should put those to rest!
Credit Where Credit Is Due
Story Title: Absolute Carnage part two
Writer: Nick Spencer
Penciler: Ryan Ottley
Inker: Cliff Rathburn
Colorist: Nathan Fairbairn
Letterer: VC’s Joe Caramanga
Cover Artist: Ryan Ottley and Nathan Fairbairn
Asst. Editor: Kathleen Wisneki
Editor: Nick Lowe
Published: October 9, 2019
Remedial ASM 101
Carnage wants to put together his symbiote god and to do that he has to get a piece of symbiote out of everyone who has ever worn a symbiote. Norman Osborn believes he is Cletus Kassidy, so he is currently trying to get a piece of symbiote out of his grandson Normie and out of Dylan Brock who is Venom’s son. Spidey tried to stop him, but he beat the living web fluid out of him. All during this, we are flashing back to Kindred hanging out at the insane asylum talking to Norman and also flashing back to Harry’s drug days.
The Story – Pay Attention, This Will Be on the Test
Norman defeats Spider-Man but cannot kill him because earlier Kindred put a centipede in his ear that is going just this shy of Khan’s little bugs. So Norman decides to kill Normie and Dylan instead. Just as he reaches them, Spider-Man leaps back into the fight and stops him. Kindred continues to give us flashbacks – this time of Harry recovering from an overdose while at Norman’s house.
What Passed and Failed
Passed – the scenes with Kindred and Norman talking to each other were quite intense.
Failed – I hate flashbacks and here we have a flashback of Kindred flashbacking. Sheesh!
Passed – The creepiness of the centipede in the ear scene:
Passed – Spider-Man defeating the Red Goblin on his own after we’ve been told that there was no way he could do it. No help. No Spider-verse coming to his aid. No supporting character sacrificing himself to save Spidey. Spider-Man doing what Spider-Man does when faced with no recourse – kicking butt.
Also, since no one marveled at my really awesome Absolut Carnage image last review, I’m posting it again.
Analysis
As far as tie-ins go, there is little that promotes this Absolute Carnage mini, which is fine by me. Spencer uses this tie-in to ramp up his own story rather than get sidetracked by a different one.
Last issue, we had flashbacks from Harry’s first drug overdose recovery. This issue we are getting flashbacks from the second, which appears in Amazing Spider-Man #121. Yep, that’s the one with Gwen Stacy’s death. These flashbacks are certainly clues to the identity of Kindred. Let’s look at what some of this gives us.
In order to track this, we need to understand the caption boxes. Peter’s thought captions are white with a red outline. Kindred’s captions are blue. But that gives us one odd caption box – one that is white with a green outline.
I believe that not only is Kindred and Peter having the same flashbacks, but Norman must be too. Even though this personality is being overpowered by Celtus’s, I’m thinking there is some getting through. All three of them must be remembering this since there are some scenes with Peter only and some scenes where Harry is not present (but possibly within hearing range). The scene here is one where Norman is trying to reconcile Harry’s problems and his lack of being the perfect father. This fits well with Kindred and Norman’s conversation later.
The next flashback is Peter, Gwen, and MJ. This must be Peter’s memory we are accessing. It is just a small one, but we do get one interesting scene. After wondering what could have made Harry so desperate, we see:
MJ knows one of the things that could have made Harry so desperate – her! She didn’t always treat him nicely and would blatantly hit on Peter in front of him. For Spencer to focus on this scene, it presents an interesting possibility – if this is Harry (and it is), MJ bears some responsibility for this. Even though Kindred appeared to give her a pass when she avoided killing a centipede (that was probably about to go into her ear!), what is going to happen when Kindred decides she needs to pay as well?
The next bit of flashback is a scene that only Harry and Norman were privy to. It is the scene after Norman kicks out Peter, Gwen, and MJ and Harry expresses concern for his father. This sends Norman over the deep end and he runs out and becomes the Green Goblin there in his most notorious moment.
It is here that Peter takes over narration, but I did not see anything other than Peter feeling guilty for everything being his fault, and that is hardly a revelation.
Then we have more clues in what Kindred and Norman say to each other. First, when Kindred is speaking to Norman and is seemingly under the impression that Norman cannot hear or comprehend him, he reinforces that Kindred is deeply tied to the Norman/Peter dynamic. He says:
That word “consumed” seems to be there for a reason, but for the life of me, I cannot figure it out.
Then there is this comment –
“One big happy family.” Now family doesn’t have to be blood relationship. But…
Kindred is done, satisfied with his musings, but Norman is not. He calls Kindred back and I like that panel where Kindred stops, obviously not expecting this. Up to this point, Kindred has been in complete control, but this is something he hadn’t reckoned on. It makes me wonder if before this is over, Kindred and Peter will team up to take down Norman. If so, you heard it here first. If not, well, I’m counting on you forgetting it.
Cletus/Norman reveals that there are lots of voices running through his head and that Norman is only one of them. I wonder what the others are? Spencer doesn’t give us much time to think about it before going into this “fatherly” statement:
Norman also refers to Kindred as his legacy.
What does this mean? Well, Kindred is not just a product of the Peter/Norman dynamic, Kindred is the product of Norman. So who could that be?
- Harry Osborn – you know I have held that belief for a while now. Nothing in this issue sidetracks that and only seems to further reinforce it. Crawlspace odds: 99%
- Peter Parker – this was also a strong contender and even though you could make a stretch that a version of Peter is a product of Norman, the way the conversation goes in this issue it doesn’t match as nicely as it once did. Crawlspace odds: 50%
- Normie Osborn – while he is a “product” of Norman, he doesn’t fit most of the other clues. Crawlspace odds: 0%
- Gabriel Stacy – the son of Gwen and Norman certainly fills in some possibilities, but Gabriel is not dead, nor should he have any of the memories of Harry’s drug issues… Crawlspace odds: 10%
- Gwen Stacy – certainly can be made to be a product of Norman, but Kindred’s gender is too entrenched as male at this point, plus I don’t think Spencer would want to pull another “Hydra Cap” by making Gwen into a villain. Crawlspace odds: 3.14%
- The Goblin persona – the goblin persona made corporal could be upset that Norman has seemingly ditched him for other powers, but doesn’t fit the concern for Peter’s supporting characters. Crawlspace odds: 15%
Guys, I’m tripling down on Harry. I thought this back when Mendell Stromm was throwing Tri-Sentinels at Spidey and I doubled down last issue. I cannot see ANY other possibility.
Homework
The flashbacks come from Amazing Spider-Man #121. Take some time to go back and re-read it. There may be a quiz, so take notes.
Also, check out my chart of Kindred clues and tell me where I messed up or how much of a genius I am.
Teacher Feedback
Last issue was so much fun having discussions in the comments section with you guys! Speaking for all reviewers and editorialists on the Crawlspace, we live for that interaction with you.
Final Grade
A
We are not done, folks. Kindred reminds us that there are more reveals yet to come.
What’s Next?
THE FUTURE IS IN PERIL!
- As seen in ASM #25, Miguel O’Hara is back in the present and NEEDS to get to Peter Parker.
- But as he’s currently being held in an off-the-books ROXXON prison, this is easier said than done.
- And J. JONAH JAMESON has a new scheme which means one thing– TROUBLE FOR SPIDER-MAN!
Taking bets now – will Peter say we need a time heist? Crawlspace odds sitting at 87% for yes.
Nick Lowe has asked people to let the Spider office know how they are doing by sending an email to spideyoffice@marvel.com and to make sure you mark it “OK to print”. If you get published, make sure to draw our attention to it! We are overdue for yet another Chi-Town letter, so expect to see a letters pages in the next issue.
‘Nuff Said!
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@PeterParkerFan – Yeah it was!
Man, I love when Pete stops pulling his punches and goes all-out. This Norman-beatdown was long overdue.
@Chi-Town – Yes. I’m sure there will be another letters page in the next five issues or so and I’m sure you’ll be featured prominently! I’m changing sides and am now all for Chi-Town Spidey letters. I even have a new image to use for the next review – https://imgflip.com/i/3dfapr
A Chi-Town Spidey letter IS overdue.
@Alexander Evangeli – By no means was I saying that Harry’s problem’s are MJ’s fault. I only meant that she might feel guilty over this since she had been so flirty with Peter around him. Harry’s issues are far beyond anything MJ could control. She just made it worse. I think this was echoed back in the Raimi movies as well. MJ and Harry were never a good fit and Harry had to feel it. It’s just another reason for him to put his anger toward Peter.
I assume that is what consumed was referring to, but the way they highlighted it and the way he paused before, it seems that it was possibly meant to be more and I was wondering if I was missing something here. Nobody has popped up with a, “Oh! It’s a reference to …” so I guess it’s not a clue after all.
The Harry alignment being too perfect is causing me issues as well, but I’ve run through the clues over and over and I cannot think of ANYONE that meets all these requirements but him.
Run through my clues and see what I am misreading or flat out missing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hBpJMjjvoVJwH6pCIdamh8HeqbnGdy3B1QXcg3hw_yI/edit
Some points Mark. I never ever read that MJ was asserting that she was at fault for Harry’s problems and indeed she really wasn’t. I dunno if your intention was to imply that or not, but looking at the situation objectively, she and Harry were never exclusive but Harry the addict (who’s addiction MJ was likely aware of) was clingy and arguably possessive. MJ didn’t drive Harry to desperation, it was his own demons, chiefly his father. Even if one ignored her retconned backstory later, an 18-19 year old can’t be faulted for breaking up with an addict who basically wanted her to mother him. I mean if we’re assigning blame to her for that then doesn’t Peter and Gwen get blame too?
Regarding the consumed comment. Could it be referring to how vengeance consumed Harry to the point where it killed him?
I was very much in the Harry camp actually UNTIL this issue. And my reason is this. Yes all the clues fit, even if you need to do some gymnastics to make them fit (like Kingpin and Felicia). Yes this issue provides the clearest cut evidence for it being Harry.
But…that’s precisely why I don’t think it is Harry now. As of this issue, unless Spencer is hardcore relying upon the fact that Harry was last seen alive and well to fool us, Harry is TOO obvious a choice for it to be him. My suspicion is that somehow someway it will in fact be someone else but Spencer is just making it all seem like Harry is the culprit.
I don’t even know if that’s what I want out of this story. I think I’d actually want it to be an undead Harry. But I’m just saying I no longer think it is him.
Crawlspace News Alert! I think I have the reason that Kindred remains unmasked. The evidence overwhelmingly points to it being Harry, so people say that if it is Harry, it will be a let down when he is unmasked, r bringing up the point that you don’t give that much info before the unmasking. My thought is that the “Harry” walking around right now may not be all of Harry or may not be the real Harry at all (maybe a demon?) and in the next few issues, we will see a panel that has Harry and Kindred together. Then everyone will be all abuzz and say, “See! It’s not Harry!” and go back to speculating all over again, but in reality THAT will be the red herring and he will later be revealed to be Harry after all – much like Hobgoblin appearing with Kingsley to throw off people thinking it was Kingsley (before the Owsley/David/DeFalco drama that made it Ned).
… it’s Mason Banks.
Idea: When BND happened, it was just an overlay or rearrangement of life’s factors. Mephisto doesn’t have the power to actually raise and restore the dead. So poor Harry had to stay in “hell” and (somehow) watch Peter get his aunt back and have his “best life now”, the need for which only came about because of Peter’s own foolish decision to unmask. This motivated Harry to fight his way up and out.
@Evan & John Simons & ac
Everyone – please note the care to praise the author of the post in Evan and John’s comments! Bravo guys! I’m going to have to talk to BD about featuring your comments more prominently on the front page! 🙂
Evan – You know what would have made the Absolut Carnage even better in hind sight? If I had dropped the ‘e’ on Carnage too. I was this close to perfection. I’ll have to settle for just awesomeness. I thank for recognizing that awesomeness! It certainly is possible that this is mere misdirection. It does seem like he is revealing the secret before the reveal which makes me nervous that I could be wrong. I was wrong once my freshman year in college and I certainly could be again, however unlikely that scenario would be. Until then, I will continue to enjoy the discussion (imagine that – *enjoying* discussing the current story line!) and will keep looking for who else it could be. Not only is Harry lining up nicely, I’ve run out of possibilities, unless I’m misreading a clue somewhere.
John – Thanks for the kind words! Yeah, I might go down in flames falling so hard for this if he is faking me out, but I just don’t think it is a part of Peter. Don’t worry, if you are right, I’ll buy some patches that we can iron over my name on the Mark Was Right shirts (available in all sizes and four different colors)! But we can completely agree on being excited for Norman to be Norman again! JR always says he’d just rather people leave him alone because they won’t get him right, but I think Nick Spencer can do it!
ac – WOW! A Crawlspace exclusive! I can’t believe I didn’t pick up on Larry! It fits ALL THE CLUES (I’m going to say that when Black Cat said she was dating somebody, she meant Larry) plus, just a few months ago, the Daredevil comics made Mike Murdock real, so the precedent is set! 🙂 I agree, man – reading these comics is just plain FUN!
@William Sinclair & Adam B Parker
William – I think there is something to the fact that we haven’t seen Harry all this time. This tie-in would be a perfect time to see present day Harry, especially with his son being a target. Whether it is because he is Kindred or there is something else, that is certainly important.
Adam – The fact that he is still masked is a sticking point with me too. I’m excited that a call I made early one with little clues and seemingly impossible is now lining up too neatly. However, I’ve looked on some other review sites and many are glossing over these clues and still throwing out names like Carlie Cooper. Others are dismissing it because it is too obvious. Few are actually coming out and saying it is Harry. So maybe he is still masked to throw us off or still masked because there are some who still haven’t gotten it. One thing I did not mention in my review is that several of the panels show Kindred as a thin figure, which really takes his fearsomeness down a notch. He looks like Harry dressed up, to me at least.
I agree with you – making this a part of Peter is problematic at best. On top of that, we’ve already had a split of Peter and Spider-Man arc. Seems rather redundant to do it again. For it to be just an alternate universe Peter would be a let down and also redundant with all the Spider-Verse we’ve had. While a part of Peter is enticing to some degree and could be made to fit several clues (including that problematic Black Cat clue), I just don’t think Spencer is going there. And if he doesn’t go there, that doesn’t leave too many options.
Okay, you all heard it here first, Kindred is actually…. Larry! Harry’s twin brother, separated at birth. Okay, maybe it’s Harry. About the only other thing that i think is possible at this point is some sort of half baked clone of peter who died and went to hell, but i don’t really think it’s a rabbit hole Spencer would go down at this point.
I’m not 100 percent sure it’s Harry, although I’m getting close, the one thing that i’m 100 percent sure of is that i haven’t had this much fun reading Spider-man comics in a long, long time.
@john simons,
I suppose, if the two parts merged were redemption for Kindred’s crimes and Peter’s mistakes that angle could sell.
Glad the mystery has got fans talking, and debating.
To Adam’s point, the potential re-merger of Kindred and Peter in the climax of Spencer’s run (if Kindred is indeed a part of Peter’s soul) would, I think, actually be thematically satisfying and consistent within the story that Spencer is telling. The first, five issue arc of his run concludes with Peter and Spider-Man coming together (in what I think is a condemnation of how Spider-Man was handled post-OMD), so to have the big finish be Peter accepting this part of himself that has made some pretty terrible mistakes would be consistent, and, I think, actually a kind of “apology” for having jettisoned this incredibly significant part of Peter’s life, i.e. the marriage. The murdery-part is admittedly a big sticking point in my theory that Kindred is that fragment of Peter’s soul, but it just doesn’t bother all that much. If this part of Peter has been, essentially, in Hell for the past decade, then I imagine it would have been tortured to the point of not just bringing out some of Peter’s darker impulses, but would constitute a kind of demonic possession, which would lessen if not entirely eradicate Peter’s moral culpability in Kindred’s murders. I don’t know. It’s fun to think about though! (Love the Crawlspace)
Sorry, I’ve got more thoughts. I know it’s a popular theory, but I can’t get behind Kindred is a part of Peter’s Soul.
What’s the end game?
1. Either Peter and Kindred merge and become one again, then Marvel have to reconcile their kid-friendly icon is a murder. Killer by accident is reasonable, but I don’t see the overlords being okay with Spider-Man = murder. If you thought being happily married made him unrelatable
2. Peter defeats Kindred, and Marvel have to go forward with BND Peter and admit that BND Peter is not the Peter from Amazing Fantasy 15, the chain is broken.
Also in this issue (to bring it back to the review) Norman was surprised that Kindred was his true legacy afterall. For a while now Norman has believed that Peter was his heir, and Harry the pretender. So I put this as more evidence that Kindred is Harry…though I still don’t believe it.
Harry was one of my front runners as well. And your right, this issue all but confirms it…so why is Kindred still masked.
Spencer could have revealed it to us, Peter still wouldn’t know. I think I voiced this in the last review as well, but with this issue it was even more heightened. The issue admits we are a few more endings away from the reveal, so why did Spencer reveal so much of his deck? If we are now 99% sure it’s Harry (and I agree), it can’t be can it?
I think the fan base called the identity of Menace early on, but not because the clues were there, but because the writer’s failed to build a satisfying mystery. The brain trust felt they’d hidden Lilly’s identify and done a good job (they hadn’t), Spencer’s doing the opposite. He’s telling us Kindred is Harry. So why is he still wearing the mask! I think Spencer has a “I see dead people” twist coming.
@Mark — Goodness, the only thing missing in Spencer’s writing is some onomatopoeia. Not even a DING DONG kiss. Oh, well. /// Let me take a moment to gush over your Absolut Carnage imagery [Ahem]: It’s absolutely breathtaking. Clearly you spent a great deal of time working on it, and only the urgency of some Kindred identity speculation could possibly distract any reader with two eyes from basking in its unmitigated glory. Okay, done. // Is it still possible that Kindred’s identity as Harry could be misdirection? In earlier issues they would just have the character unmask and then present a backstory to justify the revelation, but at what point does the reveal no longer become a surprise because hints are dropped over a long period of time? It certainly lends itself to suspense — and thoroughly enjoyable discussions among readers, I might add — so maybe that’s all that really matters. // Excellent review as always! I must now reluctantly close this browser and take my eyes away from the Absolut Carnage picture.
This was an awesome issue (and another fantastic review, thank you Mark!). Great synthesis of the Goblin and symbiote-related guilt for Peter, a sweet moment for MJ (made me remember that moment from “Sins Past,” ‘because that’s what I do, I keep people’s secrets’), and a total badass moment for Peter that redeems his characterization and incompetence from “Go Down Swinging.” Spencer continues to heal the last decade of abuse which Peter and his world have suffered.
Again, though, I think that Harry is a total red-herring here (#BigJohnwasright). It’s TOO obvious that Kindred is being set up as the younger Osborn. This has got to be that piece of Peter’s soul that Mephisto laid claim to in OMD when Pete and MJ gave up the marriage (if my fingers could throw up from typing this I think that they would, ugh).
The 2099 event is one that I wished they would contain to the ASM title, so I’m not thrilled that we’re getting ANOTHER big event in the wake of “Absolut” Carnage (laughed out loud at my desk at work when I read your meme Mark!!). But HOLY CARP I cannot wait for Norman to be NORMAN again next time he shows up in this book.
Thanks again Mark! Viva Crawlspace
Yep, Kindred is totally pre-OMD Harry, Norman’s last speech all but confirmed it for me, and dramatically it’d make the most sense at this point. I think the theory about it being a pre-OMD Peter would actually be somewhat underwhelming in comparison. I also think it’s worth noting that Spencer has avoided showing post-OMD Harry since he took over, I wonder if there’s something to that…